Target lighting

[Davidf92]

There are so many threads related to correct target lighting, and so many new forum members who join to find solutions to impossible calibration, isn't it time Scatt finds more efficient ways to help their customers go successfully through this critical step at product startup? Here are a few points to address:

- The "1000 lux" thing is far from enough. Most people have hardly ever heard about the lux unit and have no idea what the difference between lux and lumen can be. By the way, anyone here knows the relation between these two (hint: a 3D geometry equation)? When you buy a torch or a light bulb it will say how many lumen it produces. How do you know from there how many lux it will render on your target and what to do if it is not enough?

- The contrast issue: same thing. When trying to help customers there is currently no way to discern between insufficient lighting and lack of contrast.

The same can be said about the target vs. background problems, foreground reflexion etc.

I would suggest Scatt invested some amount of time and work to produce good explanatory documentation and more adequate videos on that subject. In particular it would be helpful to see in video the comparison between bad and good lighting, like seeing for each relevant issue a bad setup that doesn't calibrate, and the modification (s) that solve the problem.

Secondly I can't believe there is no software way to indicate problems, especially with the video sensor products (Basic, MX-02 and MX-W2 at least). These sensors are not different from those in cameras and smartphones, meaning that they can measure light and contrast. The preview mode shows the picture actually seen by the sensor and this picture should be analyzed to give numerical measurements and inform precisely about problems.

Any comment please?

 

[CharlesD]

There are so many threads related to correct target lighting, and so many new forum members who join to find solutions to impossible calibration, isn't it time Scatt finds more efficient ways to help their customers go successfully through this critical step at product startup? Here are a few points to address:

- The "1000 lux" thing is far from enough. Most people have hardly ever heard about the lux unit and have no idea what the difference between lux and lumen can be. By the way, anyone here knows the relation between these two (hint: a 3D geometry equation)? When you buy a torch or a light bulb it will say how many lumen it produces. How do you know from there how many lux it will render on your target and what to do if it is not enough?

- The contrast issue: same thing. When trying to help customers there is currently no way to discern between insufficient lighting and lack of contrast.

The same can be said about the target vs. background problems, foreground reflexion etc.

I would suggest Scatt invested some amount of time and work to produce good explanatory documentation and more adequate videos on that subject. In particular it would be helpful to see in video the comparison between bad and good lighting, like seeing for each relevant issue a bad setup that doesn't calibrate, and the modification (s) that solve the problem.

Secondly I can't believe there is no software way to indicate problems, especially with the video sensor products (Basic, MX-02 and MX-W2 at least). These sensors are not different from those in cameras and smartphones, meaning that they can measure light and contrast. The preview mode shows the picture actually seen by the sensor and this picture should be analyzed to give numerical measurements and inform precisely about problems.

Any comment please?

I agree with David. I get many requests from people having difficulty getting camera-based Scatts to recognise the target and calibrate. I always point them to this Forum, but there are now so many posts with so many similar but slightly different answers that it is difficult to point them at the best thread for them. Peter has done a great job personally sorting out many people, but this must be very time consuming and repetitive (similar answers almost every time). It would save Peter a lot of time in the long run to produce a single document/video that covers all the solutions he has found in advising people. This needs to be pinned somewhere obvious, at the top.
The guidance should also make clear that the lighting solutions for camera-based Scatt are almost the complete polar opposite to those needed by USB Scatt (camera-based versions dislike most LED lights and like incandescent and halogen lights, USB Scatt hates anything that produces infra-red (incandescent and halogen) but generally works well with LED).
I personally would also like to understand how much white background camera-based Scatt needs around the aiming mark (in minutes of arc - MOA) to work well, and how far away (MOA) any adjacent aiming marks need to be. I would love to use MX-02 or MX-W2 Scatt while I shoot, but all my shooting is done on UK NSRA 25 yds 10 bull targets (see example photo below) or 50m 2 bull targets or fullbore 300-1000yds targets (other photo below) where the space between aiming marks can be less than the diameter of a single aiming mark and/or the white on the target face is a square or rectangle that is less than twice the width/height of the aiming mark. I have not had the chance to try a camera-based Scatt on these targets, but I know that older versions of MX-02 would not work on these targets. Can the newer versions cope with such close aiming mark spacings and small areas of white background as in the attached photos? (Note: there are usually targets on every target space on the open range (Bisley), not just the few that are up in this photo.)

 

[Davidf92]

(camera-based versions dislike most LED lights and like incandescent and halogen light

Really? Interesting but first time I read this. Somehow it completely contradicts my own experience as I always use LED lighting quite successfully. Which cases does this information come from?

 

[CharlesD]

Really? Interesting but first time I read this. Somehow it completely contradicts my own experience as I always use LED lighting quite successfully. Which cases does this information come from?

It's on a number of responses to help people with camera based Scatt get their systems working. The primary source is https://forum.scatt.com/threads/help-setting-up.119/#post-879 Peter's post on May 4, 2020 under the heading 'Lighting'. Any LED lamp used with a camera based Scatt needs to be flicker-free. Most cheap LED lamps are NOT flicker-free. You can quickly check whether a LED lamp is flicker free by setting your phone camera to slow motion video and pointing it towards the lamp (no need to record). If the image flickers, the LED lamp is not flicker-free!

 

[Davidf92]

Most cheap LED lamps are NOT flicker-free.

would it not have been worth, in this very case, quoting @Peter's comment precisely, as he wrote "I highly recommend using only flicker-free LED" which is rather far from "camera-based versions dislike most LED lights"? I agree with you that bad quality LED lamps exist but after reading your message I tested all those I could fine and all but one were flicker-free. And the one with flicker was still good enough for my Scatt to calibrate when I used it as only lighting source on my home indoor target. Maybe suggesting users to use LEDs after checking for flicker would be a useful advice?

Actually it is not exactly a LED issue. LEDs are absolutely flicker-free devices by themselves. The problem is with their power source or electronic voltage transformer when powered from AC wall outlets or building lighting. Many LED bulbs that you put in replacement of traditional incandescent bulbs have indeed a strong flicker. But LED lights, torches, battery- or USB-powered LEDs and the like are in most cases flicker-free.
When LED lights have an included battery that charges on a USB cable, in many cases they should rather be used in battery mode, because if plugged the USB transformer may cause flicker if bad quality.

 

[Соня Байдуник-и-Папа-Сони]

[QUOTE = "Davidf92, сообщение: 1905, участник: 796"]
На самом деле это не совсем проблема со светодиодами. Сами по себе светодиоды абсолютно немерцающие устройства.
[/ QUOTE]

Н совсем верно, Друг. Очень часто, некачественные приборы мерцают часто. И от разных источников питания, и от сети 220v. Я решил свою проблему по совету [USER = 1] [USER = 1] @Peter [/ USER] [/ USER] - мы купили вот это https://www.scatt.ru/paper-target-holder-lb-01 и забыли о проблемах навсегда. Хотя до этого покупали массу подсвечивающих устройств. Большинство из них или не работало по факту, или мерцали.

 

[marshoot]

Does anyone have experince using this Paper target holder with integrated light LB-01

 

[Triplef]

Does anyone have experince using this Paper target holder with integrated light LB-01

Yes I have experience with the LB-01. No more problems with the calibration and the reliability has been greatly increased. I train at home at a distance of 5 meters.

 

[marshoot]

Cool I'm trying to buy one. I have not heard back from Scatt on paying for it.

 

[John Marchant]

I have found that using the daylight 6,000 k LED lighting that I have installed, which creates about 2,700 lux on the target, the MX-02 works fine using the Professional software, but it does not recognise the shots taken using the Expert software. I have to add an additional 120watt halogen lamp to change the colour on the target to get Expert to recognise the shots being taken.