High difference in Scatt and Sius score

[Shifty]

Hello all,

We are experiencing unusually high difference in results on Sius and Scatt (air rifle 10m). On Siusresults are in the range of 625-630, but Scatt is showing around 5 points higher, already with ballistic ratio 80! Typically for most of our shooters we have it in 20-30 range (also with this particular shooter with older scatt system). This was observed on a few training sessions, not just once.

Any idea why we would need such high F number (is it completely the same as ballistic ratio?)? I would not think that anything is wrong with rifle/pallets as score on sius is already fairly high and 635 would be exceptional.

What does changing F coefficient do (i know the effect)? Does it change the distance from shoot release to hit (recoil?)? Why does it also change the steadiness in 10,0 (how is this possible if the trace stays the same?)? I assume it is not just bigger random group dispersion (random direction of hits)?

Is there any other reason that Sius results would be constantly lower? I know there is difference, but I did not yet experience such constant difference.

We are using Scat MX-W2 and Scatt Expert.

Thank you for the help!

 

[Peter]

Hello there,

Could you attach a couple of practice files in questions for us to look at, please?
Thanks in advance!

 

[Peter]

Hello!

I'm not a pro shooter myself and my take on this would have been irrelevant.
Thus, it took some time to consult with our Artyom Khadjibekov, as he's a busy man

Anyway, he looked through both sessions and, truth be told, has not found anything counterintuitive or extremely unnatural. Especially taking into account that this a practice file of an experienced well-trained shooter, as they indeed get result-driven sessions from time to time -where their average aimpoint leans toward the bullseye big time. In cases like this, shooters' results actually improve and the scores go up, as you increase that Ballistic Ratio (a polar opposite of what happens to a bad shooter that tends to jerk the gun away from the bullseye and therefore gets horrible digital results with higher Ballistic Ratios).

Now, why does our Ballistic Ratio change the vast majority of stats? It's simple and should make sense: hold stability is calculated at every point the trajectory travels and the Ballistic Ratio is applied to each of these points as well which manifests in different shot-hole flyoffs.

Let's say the software would calculate hold percentages differently - without the Ratio algorithm applied. With this approach, we would get a lot of shots that land in the 9 ring, with 100% hold stability in 10.0. This would definitely spark off a ton of questions from your regular users, as this approach makes far less sense compared to fluid ratio-dependant hold statistics we have now.

At the end of the day, it's crucial to understand that any SCATT model is a training tool first and foremost. At the same time, as per Russian National Team's experience (also confirmed by Mr. Khadjibekov), a perfect air rifle with perfectly hand-picked pellets shall yield a discrepancy of only -0.6 points per a 630 point series (given that a personalized Ballistic Ratio for this set of gear is also established and in use). Perhaps, this shooter could further look into his shooting gear, as there might be room for some minor calibrations and improvement.

Hope this was helpful!

 

[Gale Stewart]

As the Canadian National coach of three international level shooters (Paralympic SH2 that shoot air rifle with the rifle rested) I have a fair bit of experience with it's use at the 630+ score level. With Scatt MX-02 and MX-W2 models and Expert software, the Ballistic Ratio should be set around 15-20 to 'match' scores obtained on an electronic target.

The observed difference between Scatt and e_target scores is mostly due to differences in group centering on both systems that do not coincide. It would be nice for Expert to have the feature from the Pro version that allowed to calculate the score when the group is centered (Hint, Hint, Peter!).

My suggestion is to have your shooter use the very best pellets and to rest the rifle to take the human factor out, adjust the Ballistic Ratio to match the Scatt score to the e_target score and then use whatever practice pellets focusing on the Scatt shot analysis. At 630+, trace speed are very consistent (their hold is obviously excellent as they shoot 630+), variation will come mostly from aiming (pay attention to the 10.5%) and triggering (pay attention to the DA).

Cheers,
Gale

 

[Peter]

It would be nice for Expert to have the feature from the Pro version that allowed to calculate the score when the group is centered

Good call, I'm fairly sure this feature shall migrate to Expert eventually

At 630+, trace speed are very consistent (their hold is obviously excellent as they shoot 630+), variation will come mostly from aiming (pay attention to the 10.5%) and triggering (pay attention to the DA).

Great tip actually, forgot to mention this myself - go ahead and enable that 10.5 hold in settings Shifty

 

[mdelco1]

As the Canadian National coach of three international level shooters (Paralympic SH2 that shoot air rifle with the rifle rested) I have a fair bit of experience with it's use at the 630+ score level. With Scatt MX-02 and MX-W2 models and Expert software, the Ballistic Ratio should be set around 15-20 to 'match' scores obtained on an electronic target.

The observed difference between Scatt and e_target scores is mostly due to differences in group centering on both systems that do not coincide. It would be nice for Expert to have the feature from the Pro version that allowed to calculate the score when the group is centered (Hint, Hint, Peter!).

My suggestion is to have your shooter use the very best pellets and to rest the rifle to take the human factor out, adjust the Ballistic Ratio to match the Scatt score to the e_target score and then use whatever practice pellets focusing on the Scatt shot analysis. At 630+, trace speed are very consistent (their hold is obviously excellent as they shoot 630+), variation will come mostly from aiming (pay attention to the 10.5%) and triggering (pay attention to the DA).

Cheers,
Gale

Good Morning Gale,
I have been training SCATT only for several months with a new rifle making singular adjustments to the stock and or set up as I progress. I have spent the last month making small adjustments to the pistol grip and trigger shoe positions to hone down my shot execution. I am currently focused on the DA reading and am curious as to your opinion of a good "DA" value. I am using the 50m target and believe the default BC setting is 30. My average DA value is trending downward and has been averaging about 2.5. Secondarily, is there a correlation between trace speed and DA reading? or are they exclusive of each other?

Many Thanks, Mark DelCotto KY/USA